An ascending power in international relations is often met with resistance from other powers. But what happens when the resistance is from within? 

The manner in which China has risen to the top has been unconventional, to say the least. Defying the critiques that liberal democracy is a pre-requisite to the path of being a major power, China’s ascent to the summit has been characterized by absolute authoritarianism, blatant disregard for individual freedoms and brazenness of state power. 

China’s military might and its economic prowess need no words of introduction, but in this journey to realize the aspiration of being a hegemony, what means has it employed? 

In all its nooks and corners, China has unleashed its all-encompassing brigade of the red dragon. In the south, Tibet's autonomy is all but finished. The de facto leader of Tibet his Holiness the Dalai Llama has been ostracized in China. Hong Kong, even though it is not shying away from its fight, has seen its spirits diminished to a large extent. However, in the less talked about Xinjiang or East Turkestan region in the northwest, its ethnic minority called the Uyghurs stand headfirst in the face of forced labour, concentration camps and arbitrary killings. Resilient and unfazed.

We had the absolute honor to speak to one such revolutionary. 

 story is a telling tale of Chinese persecution, individual courage and incredible strength of character. 

So sit back, and revel as this story takes you from 1980's China, to Europe, the United Nations, Zara 

, and the present-day condition of the Uyghurs. 

: I would like to take you back to your roots and trace them back. What do you remember about China when you were growing up? How did your youth go about? 

: I was born in 1967, in Aksu, of course, we don't say it's China, it's East Turkestan! But when I was born, my land was already occupied by China and the People’s Liberation Army. I grew up in Aksu and a small village called Kalpin, with my grandmother, since my parents were very busy with work, so they were not left with much time to take care of the children. So, most of my siblings and I grew up with our grandparents. I did my primary school, middle school and high school there.

Then, in 1984, I enrolled at Xinjiang University to study Physics. When I registered, this was the period when everything changed for me. Before I enrolled into the University, I did not understand the intentions of China very much, but once I got to talk to my classmates I learned a lot of things. We discussed different topics and it opened my eyes. 

In 1985, the second year of my university, the largest pro-democratic student movement was happening, and I actively joined the protest. This was a turning point for me. I was thinking at that time, why? Why were we discriminated against daily? Even at the education level, there was a lot of discrimination at every level, and if we read the Chinese constitution, there is a thing called Autonomous law. Since the Xinjiang region is an autonomous region there are a lot of rights for the Uyghurs. But the ground reality was different, there was no sign of this autonomy. 

The 1980s was probably the last period of open expression of pro-democracy protests that we know of.

I was thinking why do we have to demand this right for ourselves? Why is it not implemented? At that time I was not that aware, I thought this law had been implemented by China, but I did not realize that this was all a show and that they existed only on paper. I thought to myself, if a right has not been willingly given to you then you should demand it. This is when I faced my first challenge….

Almost 75-80% of the Uyghurs are illiterate because in most of the rural areas there is no school. The society’s education level is very low, they cannot, therefore, demand their own rights. Hence, I thought we needed to educate people and make them aware of the rights that they should have and the discrimination they were facing. This inequality is not from god!

I discussed this issue with others at the University and we established a Student Club. It was called the Student’s Science and Culture Union, founded in 1987. We got the permission, it was quite difficult at that time. We mobilized many Kazakh and Uyghur students to go to the rural areas to spread the alphabet and provide education. If people can learn the alphabet, then they can start to learn some things and then they can understand what kind of rights they have. Additionally, all the media in China is a propaganda tool of the Chinese Communist Party, and some education could create critical thinking. 

We started our activities mostly in the summer and winter holidays. Unlike in Europe or other parts of the world, there are no private companies, there are no avenues for the students to work and earn money. In those months, the students are idle. There is no social life. So that was the reason that we were able to mobilize the students, they were happy to be doing something. They were volunteers, of course, since we could not pay. 

At that time UNESCO was working with the Chinese Government to increase education in China. So I thought my activism must be supported by the government. But when we faced barriers, that is when I realized this policy is only for the Han Chinese, not for us Uyghurs or other ethnic minorities. The Chinese government does not really want to increase the educational level of Uyghurs and some other ethnic groups, and the other aspects such as autonomic rights, autonomic laws, and constitutional rights are only on paper. The rule of the Chinese Communist Party was higher than the constitutional law.

On the 5th of July, 1988, I led a student demonstration. We had more than 5 hours of debate with the Chinese Communist Party leadership and other student leaders. We decided to organize big camps and prepared the whole night for what we were planning the next few days. The next morning, the president of Xinjiang University and some other officials came to my room saying "the party leadership wants to talk to you". We were able to speak to the minister of education, finance, and the party secretary. We had more than 5-6 hours of debate, but there was not much compromise. We then decided to strike back and organize a protest. 

But before we could do any of that, in the middle of the night I was house arrested for about 4 months. And after that, I was kicked out of the university. I was not able to graduate. 

 I would be right in saying that at that time, a revolutionary was born. My next question would be, why? Why does the Chinese government want to persecute the Uyghurs? We know the relationship that China shares with religion. Do they feel that people’s belief in Islam might undermine their loyalty to communism and to the communist regime?    

 The Chinese government and particularly CCP cannot accept diversity and multiculturalism. In China, I would say there are 56 minorities. But in reality, except for the Uyghurs and Tibetans, the rest of them are already assimilated. The Chinese government is trying to assimilate the Uyghurs and Tibetans. But the Uyghurs and Tibetans are resisting. Not all minorities are the same. 

The population of Uyghurs is around 12.5 million but it could well be 20 million. Okay, maybe in proportion to the entire population that is not a lot, but 20 million is still a lot of people, spread out in 1.8 million square km. Since the occupation, the discrimination and the assimilation policy of the Chinese government has never changed. But they have not been successful, because we have fought to keep our identity alive. 

The Chinese assimilation policy works in different ways at different times. Sometimes, China uses very violent ways to crackdown: torture, arrests or even killings. For example during the Chinese cultural revolution of 1966 to 1977. 

At that time Uyghur language publication was banned, and the Tibetan too. On the other hand, they sometimes use soft tactics. After Mao Zedong died, the Chinese government tried to show the world that they were reforming their economy and making it liberal. We saw some signs of autonomy and some indication that they were sorry for the trouble we faced during the cultural revolution. However, the Chinese policy of discrimination and assimilation never changed.

 The Chinese have pushed the Tibetans and other minorities to write, speak and read Chinese.

In 1949, when China occupied East Turkestan, the Chinese population was only 4-5%. It was mostly military and their families. More than 80% were Uyghurs, and another 10-15% were Kazak, Mongol and others. In the coming years, the population of the Uyghurs decreased to about 40%, whereas the Chinese population increased by 40%. 

The main goal of the Chinese government is population transport. The family planning policy of China also played a major role. Of course, it was for all of China and not just the Xinjiang region, but with the one-child policy or the two-child policy, population transport and effective decrease of the Uyghur population were carried out. 

In 1985 and 1988, this was the main slogan of our demonstrations, “Stop the Family planning policy”. Of course, there were other demands, such as a democratic election, and ceasing nuclear testing in the East Turkestan area. 

The Chinese government conducted 46 nuclear tests from 1964-1996. The radioactive pollution in the water killed almost 1,000 people, because people lived only about 100km from the testing sites. Studies conducted by a Japanese professor stated that almost 1 million died due to this radioactive poisoning. 

So, in conclusion, the Chinese government will never accept another culture, another identity, their main purpose is assimilation. 

They do not need Tibetans or Uyghurs, they only need the territory. The East Turkestan area might not be habitable and it may be a small area but it has abundant natural resources. 

Gold, Uranium, Gas, and Coal, are present in East Turkestan. 

In Mongolia as well, even though it is an autonomous region, just like Xinjiang, but the actual population of Mongols only accounts for 13%, and more than 85% of the population is Chinese. Most of the new generations don't speak Mongolian either, they only speak Chinese. 

More recently, the Chinese government evolved the discriminatory and assimilation policy into a genocidal policy. You might ask, why now, so suddenly? 

But it is not sudden at all, discrimination has been happening for a long time. But when Xi Jinping took power, the policy turned into a genocidal policy. This is mainly because of the One Belt One Road initiative. It is one of the biggest projects in China. 

This project is a territorial expansion project. 

The land and maritime road combined is the One Belt One Road initiative.

China is using its economic power to expand. Today, in the 21st century, you cannot occupy a piece of land with military force. If you occupy it by force, it will be for some period of time, since international pressure would make you de-occupy it. 

But if you dominate economically, you can do so for a long time. Since China is dependent on energy from the Middle East, it wants to sell its cheaper and unqualified production to the world.  So that's why China spent billions of dollars in the CPEC (China Pakistan Economic Corridor), China spent more than $64 billion in this project. This is a project which is the center of a new secret project. 

So China thought that as long as Uyghurs exist, it will never successfully implement this project. That's why Xi Jinping very openly started discrimination against us. He thought that if we were eradicated then the problem is eradicated. Only then, China would be able to successfully implement the One Belt One Road Project. That's why Xi Jinping, step by step, implemented the genocide policy. 

 I think at the end of all of this, I would like to ask you how do you hold China accountable? 

 Today the Chinese government is not only persecuting Uyghurs. It is persecuting Tibetans as well. The rest of the minorities, or so-called “minorities”, are already assimilated into Chinese society. 

But Communist Party persecution is for its own citizens as well. For example, Chinese Christians are under the prosecution by CCP, because the Chinese Communist Party does not tolerate religion. 

 More than 80 million Falun Gong are suffering, they’re Chinese but it is a religious group. Because of this religious leaning, there are more than 80 million Falun Gong under threat. Millions of Chinese Christians are also under threat, even some churches have been destroyed. Buddhist temples have also been destroyed. 

Many Chinese human rights activists are in jail today. 

Liu Xiaobo, who is a Nobel Peace Prize laureate, died while he was still imprisoned.

 He was promoting the rights of women. That's why this issue is not only between Uyghurs and China. Today, China has a huge interior problem. China uses money, military power and police power. It pays them to try to control the whole of China, but for how long? We don't know how long it can last. 

This crime must be accountable to international law and also the countries. Just because China today is providing food and clothes to 1,500 million people it isn't above the laws. People know that it's not just food that matters. If you only fill stomachs, it isn't all of life, it has no value. That's why China is facing quite a lot of problems. 

After Xi Jinping came to power, he changed the constitution as well. Before it was just two terms. Now, just like Mao Zedong, it is indefinite. So that's why China’s politburo has a lot of problems. Some other members of the Politburo who are in prison have lost hope. They have a problem too. 

So that's why the international course of action has to be followed. So far, nine or ten parliaments have recognized the genocide against Uyghurs. And we will try tribunals as well. Geoffery Nice, the former chief prosecutor at the trial of Slobodan Milosevic at the Hague (he is a UK lawyer),

 set up a tribunal and collected information for 18 months.

More than 500 people gave testimony and the hearing took place in London. They invited the Chinese government as well. But the Chinese government didn't attend. On December 9th last year, the Uyghur tribunal gave a judgement stating the Chinese government committed genocide and crimes against humanity. 

On the 9th of June, the European Parliament recognized the genocide motion as well. We have to push the countries. All the countries that signed the international Convention on Genocide of 1948, have legal duties and legal obligations to stop ongoing genocide. And all human beings have a moral obligation too. So China must be accountable according to international law. 

 China is a big economy, as you said. So in reality when does morality go above money? Because we've seen there are lots of conferences and talks, but when it gets down to it, everyone is in bed economically with China. What do you think about the money? If money seems to be ruling everyone, even Europe, the United Nations, or the US, and all these western countries that should be the moral compass of the world, does that mean that it's just money that matters?

 Yes, you are right. This is the same issue. This is true of some countries and companies and, unfortunately, the human value of life is less important than money. 

So that's why, today, quite a lot of European countries and democratic societies also close their eyes and just ignore the ongoing genocide. However, we have seen some positive steps at the beginning, because this genocide came to the limelight two to three years ago, and then more evidence was published, and some leaked documents published have given us survivor-made testimony. 

Some countries, particularly democratic countries cannot continue their silence because everything is clear. There is no excuse to continue silence, if the country continues its silence it means it's because of China's economic power. Remember, China is the second-biggest economy. The difference between China, which is an authoritarian country, and a  democratic country is the respect of basic human rights, democracy, rule of law and transparency. 

If a country just continues silent because of money, then there is no difference between China and that country. The whole world has seen very clearly the effects of the Crimean war and the current war between Russia and Ukraine. In the 21st century, people never thought Putin would start such a war. And Putin is receiving strong support from China. You have to chose a side, and act like it. 

President Biden signed a bill banning imports from Xinjiang

But people are waking up now, even if it is a bit too late, they are waking up. For example, in December last year, the US congress provided bipartisan support and passed the Uyghur Forced Labour Prevention Act. 

Consequently, on the 31st of June, US President Joe Biden passed this bill into law for implementation. It means that the US and its companies cannot import anything produced from East Turkestan, or Xinjiang. 

This is a good step. Some countries, like the UK for example, or Germany, are also discussing such a bill. They are understanding that for many years, they tolerated it because of the temporary economic benefit, but now, China is not only threatening the Uyghur community. They are persecuting Tibetans, and other Chinese people as well. Today the whole world is slowly understanding that China and the Russians are not only threatening regional peace, but also global peace and basic democratic values. 

So that's why we have seen a little bit more movement, a little late, but still needed, because if we wait and continue being silent, in 20 years, China will be the biggest economy in the world. What kind of world are we leaving for future generations. 

This is the important point because we are trying to warn them, we are trying to educate them and now people are slowly releasing slowly that China is a threat to them. We have seen Europe and United States working together and taking positive steps against Russia. They immediately sanctioned Russia even though they require Russian energy. In the same way sanctions against the Chinese government must also be looked at. 

 I think that speaking about these positive steps also takes me back to May 2022, when 

Michelle Bachelet, the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights, visited the Xinjiang region. 

 There was a lot of criticism because it was said that she was just parroting the Chinese Communist Party. I would like to get your reaction to her visit and what she said in the press conference. 

 Yes, we at World Uyghur Congress and some other international organizations, continually have demanded an impartial visit to East Turkestan since 2019. Because China at the time denied everything and changed the narrative constantly. 

Finally, the Chinese government permitted her to visit, but before that, she visited the Chinese Embassy. The Chinese said it was just a friendly diplomatic visit. But she is not a diplomat, she is the representative of the highest body for human rights. She is not the President of Chile anymore. (She was the president of Chile before) She is the highest body in the United Nations for human rights. She should not forget her position in the United Nations. She, in theory, represents the improvement of human rights. 

Michelle Bachelet's visit to China was nothing but a formality.

Before her visit, we mobilized Tibetans and Uyghurs and demanded that her visit should be an unfettered visit. But she didn't meet any Uyghur representatives or any camps. And actually, her UN High Commissioner's office had already finalized the human rights report on Uyghurs in September 2021. We expected the report to be released in September or October last year but they continued to postpone this report. So we know her visit wasn't useful. She went there and just met some Chinese high-level officials and made a press conference and, well, it was shameful. 

She lost the historical chance to stop this atrocity. But her statement, her visit isn't the one of the UN High Commissioner for the Human Rights. Her visit is the same as a commissioner of China or Minister of China. A lot of countries also criticized her visit and nearly all human rights organizations in the world criticized her visit. She just a benefited the Chinese government.  

Last week before I came to the United States, I was in Geneva attending the 50th session of the Human Rights Council and she was there too. She made a statement saying "I was there but I was not able to meet any detainees". "I couldn't meet them since and all the time the Chinese officials followed me around". 

Why didn't she say anything before?  In the press conference, she changed everything because of the pressure. She also announced she will be running again, but she lost credibility. She did not only lose her own credibility, but also the credibility of the UNO as well. 

 Michelle Bachelet's visit came just weeks before 

this great hack, these leaked police files.

  Did it just serve as a testament to what you have been saying up until now? Or did it provide you with any new information? 

 The document is significant to convince the international community. But for us, it is nothing new. We are not surprised, unfortunately, because this evidence is maybe 1% of what is happening. 

For example, in the past six years, I lost contact with my family, and I received heartbreaking news.  

I lost my mother in one of the concentration camps. My last telephone communication with my mother was in April 2017. After one year or about 14 months later, I got the news that my mother passed away. Quite a lot of international media reached out to me and asked me, “In which condition did your mother pass away?" I don't know, I have no idea. 

Then two, or three weeks later, Washington Post Radio was conducting some research, randomly calling the police authorities or some government officials. Then they confirmed, they reported and confirmed, that my mother died in one of the concentration camps. 

In 2020, China's Global Times reported that my father passed away too. What kind of circumstances? I don't know. He could have died in the hospital, at home. or anywhere Where is his grave? I don't know. 

And last year, in 2021, I got more heartbreaking news. My younger brother was sentenced to life. 

Before that, I learned my older brother, who's a mathematics professor, was sentenced from 17 to 24 years. 

This is all the news that I've gotten in the last 5 years about my family. 

I don’t know whether my two brothers are alive or dead. I don't know how many of my relatives are still alive, or how many are in concentration camps. I just don't know. 

The leaked files have shed light on a camp in the Shifu region, Xinjiang.

But my case is not unique. Most of the Uyghurs who live in exile have the same problems. That's why these leaked files are not new to us. This is the situation we are faced with every day. But it is very significant to convince the world. There are more than 5,000 pictures, and these type of things are a shock to the world. 

So that's why these files are useful to impact countries, people and even international organizations, so the media have to do something. For example, for the last two years we are trying to approach the European Parliament to recognize the Uyghur genocide. Okay, some Parliament members may not give us support before, but after this file is published and the parliament is in session, it should push them to move a resolution. 

 The killings in concentration camps also presents another dark reality, forced labor.  

Reports have suggested strongly that Nike was allegedly using forced labor from Uyghurs in their factories in Xinjiang. 

I'm very interested, where's the money in all of this? Someone living far away might be indifferent to this problem. And even if they want to do something, they might feel helpless. If someone right now is in Europe, what can they do? Is it in your experience that the more information, the more knowledge, the more pressure for governments and international institutions to change things? So what would you say to people, to everyone around the world and how can they help?

 Well, thank you. This is a good question. The Chinese government is trying to undermine everyone, even European countries, other democratic countries and also on the academic institutions. Just two days ago, the Sydney Technical University provided a platform for the Chinese embassy to talk, and they used it to spread Chinese Communist Party propaganda.  Some students wanted to ask some questions but the security forced them out. 

So now, other students should pay attention and raise awareness. Quite a lot of people don't know. Every citizen can write a letter to the lawmaker or to the government to ask them to apply pressure. 

The first step should be to write a letter to the lawmakers or parliament members to approve or adopt the Uyghur genocide motion. 

And secondly to apply pressure to the government and foreign ministry and ask, why continue the silence? 

Also, question companies like Zara, that have a direct link to Uyghur forced labor.  People can at least refuse to buy such kinds of products. 

Also, organize things such as webinars, or write articles, because the young generation is very active on social media. 

It is important because China spends $60 billion a year on fake news. Can you imagine that? $60 billion. They develop new apps and use all opportunities. 

The young generation can use social media and raise awareness to educate the people. Everything helps, this is an actual genocide that isn't talked about in mainstream media. It's up to the youth, who run social media, to group together and make a change.

Who are the Uyghurs? Genocide, forced labour and endless Chinese atrocities; Dolkun Isa interview

4 Comments